Waterloo and The Somme

[borebage53]

The Anglo-Allied army’s dead and wounded at Waterloo numbered roughly 15,000,those of the Prussians at 7,000, while the number of the French losses are impossible to quantify with any accuracy. The Armee du Nord’s strength along the ridge of the Belle Alliance on the morning of the 18th June was 77,500. One week later,when the remains of the army was mustered at Laon,numbering 30,844. Of the 46,656 difference of these 2 figures- counted as losses- it is not known how many deserted and returned to their homes,how many were killed by Prussian lance and sabre in the murderous pursuit in the days after, and how many were left dead and wounded on the Waterloo battlefield itself. The lower estimate of the French battlefield losses is fewer than 22,000; the upper at 31,000.

 

[borebage53]

The Battle of Waterloo was remarkable,however,less for the number of casualties than for the “congestion of slaughter”. A comparatively smaller battle than many of the other Grand Battles of the Napoleonic era. At Waterloo the opposing armies occupied an area measuring 2 and a half miles from one ridge to the other,by 3 miles from east to west,and the actual fighting was condensed to a front just 2 miles long. This meant for a little more than 10 hours, some 200,000 men, 60,000 horses and 537 guns were in action on a piece of land measuring just 5 square miles.It put at its centre 20,000 infantry occupying a space of less than half an English mile. At many,many places at the height of the battle it left the dead and wounded piled up in large extended heaps!

 

[borebage53]

It’s calculated that the mean average of casualties suffered by Wellington’s army per mile of front during the single day of fighting at Waterloo was 2,921; as compared with an average of 234 British casualties per mile of front over the 120 days of the first Battle of the Somme in 1916. (28,080 in total).

 

[Pen4]

It’s calculated that the mean average of casualties suffered by Wellington’s army per mile of front during the single day of fighting at Waterloo was 2,921; as compared with an average of 234 British casualties per mile of front over the 120 days of the first Battle of the Somme in 1916. (28,080 in total).

Those figures for the Somme are way out I believe

 

[borebage53]

Well we know that the whole casualties for the entirety of the Somme came to just shy of 430,000 counting dead,wounded,missing or captured.The length of the British front line on 1st June was approximately 15-18 miles,with another 8 miles added by the French sector. The blackest day in British Army military history was the first day of the Somme with just short of 20,000 dead out of 58,000 casualties. The mean average of 234 casualties per every mile of front over 120 days and times by number of miles (15) does work out to a whole of 421,200 casualties. So the historians are not far off with their mean average 234 casualties per mile of front over the 120 days. Some sectors on different days would have been more brutally costly in the lives of men than others were but the historians have worked it out to the “mean average” as the best way to compare the 2 battles.
It is difficult to make a completely accurate comparison of 2 different famous battles in our history which were 100 years apart but the savagery,carnage and slaughter at Waterloo was astonishing in its scale on a single days fighting on only a 2 mile front.

 

[borebage53]

The day before Waterloo the Anglo-Allied army fought a battle at Quatre-Bras with part of the French army while the Prussians fought another part of the French army at Ligny as the 3 armies fought for position. On the day of Waterloo itself the Prussians fought another separate battle with some of the French at Wavre before Blücher was able to come to the aid of Wellington later in the day.

 

[borebage53]

In the Crimean War (1853-1856) the British casualties(fighting alongside the French and Turks against the Russians) were 22,182 dead out of a force of 98,000. Only 4,602 were actually combat deaths while an astonishing 17,580 were lost to disease.

 

[Pen4]

My apologies. I mis-read your point. I thought that you were highlighting the disparity between casualties on a single day in which case the Somme is far worse by my calculation (on the first day only though)

If you are interested in Waterloo have you seen the following on youtube? This chap details the specific actions of every unit (including those that fought at Quatre Bras) and has researched the background of every soldier that he can trace. Superb stuff.

The Waterloo Podcast

Share your videos with friends, family and the world

www.youtube.com

 

[Sammelslongshot]

Well we know that the whole casualties for the entirety of the Somme came to just shy of 430,000 counting dead,wounded,missing or captured.The length of the British front line on 1st June was approximately 15-18 miles,with another 8 miles added by the French sector. The blackest day in British Army military history was the first day of the Somme with just short of 20,000 dead out of 58,000 casualties. The mean average of 234 casualties per every mile of front over 120 days and times by number of miles (15) does work out to a whole of 421,200 casualties. So the historians are not far off with their mean average 234 casualties per mile of front over the 120 days. Some sectors on different days would have been more brutally costly in the lives of men than others were but the historians have worked it out to the “mean average” as the best way to compare the 2 battles.
It is difficult to make a completely accurate comparison of 2 different famous battles in our history which were 100 years apart but the savagery,carnage and slaughter at Waterloo was astonishing in its scale on a single days fighting on only a 2 mile front.

Both hard to Imagine. It has been said that most of the 58000 on the First day of the Somme on 1 July 1916 were suffered inside 90 minutes between 7 30am and 9.00am. That the battle continued until November as well.

 

[borebage53]

Recent studies estimate that the American Civil War (1861-1865) killed were between 700,000 - 750,000. Apart from the horrific battle casualties it was disease again that accounted for roughly two thirds of all the fatalities.

 

[borebage53]

My apologies. I mis-read your point. I thought that you were highlighting the disparity between casualties on a single day in which case the Somme is far worse by my calculation (on the first day only though)

If you are interested in Waterloo have you seen the following on youtube? This chap details the specific actions of every unit (including those that fought at Quatre Bras) and has researched the background of every soldier that he can trace. Superb stuff.

The Waterloo Podcast

Share your videos with friends, family and the world

www.youtube.com

Just reading Waterloo,The Aftermath by Paul O’Keefe.

 

[Sammelslongshot]

In the Crimean War (1853-1856) the British casualties(fighting alongside the French and Turks against the Russians) were 22,182 dead out of a force of 98,000. Only 4,602 were actually combat deaths while an astonishing 17,580 were lost to disease.

Talking of Victorian soldiers reminds me of my Great Grandfather. He fought in India and China and spent years on garrison duty. My grandfather was born in Aldershot Camp. One of his brother's was born in Malta and another in Gibraltar. Even garrison duty was a risk of disease for soldiers and their families

 

[Pen4]

Talking of Victorian soldiers reminds me of my Great Grandfather. He fought in India and China and spent years on garrison duty. My grandfather was born in Aldershot Camp. One of his brother's was born in Malta and another in Gibraltar. Even garrison duty was a risk of disease for soldiers and their families

India was a killer - they dropped like flies

 

[Sammelslongshot]

India was a killer - they dropped like flies

No doubt you know where the saying going Doolally came from

 

[borebage53]

The conflict that has still caused the greatest disruption,hardships and political upheavals to our country ever in our history,as a percentage to our population at the time, are the English Civil War (1642-1651), part of the wider Wars of the Three Kingdoms (1639 - 1653).
Estimates indicate that England lost 4% of its population,Scotland a loss of 6%, while Ireland suffered a 41% loss of its population.

 

[Pen4]

The conflict that has still caused the greatest disruption,hardships and political upheavals to our country ever in our history,as a percentage to our population at the time, are the English Civil War (1642-1651), part of the wider Wars of the Three Kingdoms (1639 - 1653).
Estimates indicate that England lost 4% of its population,Scotland a loss of 6%, while Ireland suffered a 41% loss of its population.

Have been listening to lots of stuff on the Civil Wars recently

 

[borebage53]

The Siege of Leicester in 1645,a Parliamentary stronghold at the time, by the Royalist force led by Prince Rupert was particularly brutal. It left one-fifth of Leicester’s population at the time dead.
The New Model Army defeated the Royalist Army of Charles 1st at Naseby just south of Market Harborough a few weeks later.
The Siege of Leicester was one of the indictments raised against King Charles at his trial.

 

[Sammelslongshot]

For an ordinary soldier's memoir of WW1 I recommend With A Machine Gun to Cambrai by George Coppard.

 

[Brauny]

Both hard to Imagine. It has been said that most of the 58000 on the First day of the Somme on 1 July 1916 were suffered inside 90 minutes between 7 30am and 9.00am. That the battle continued until November as well.

My Great Uncle was at the Somme in July 1916.
He served in the 8th Leicestershire Regiment.
At that time he was 36 and a veteran of the Boer War in Africa.
He was a Sgt in the 1st WW but was returned home from the Somme with illness.
I found out that he had developed caries of the spine or probably more commonly known as Potts disease which was a form of TB.
He died aged 39 in 1919 and is buried in the WW1 plot at Welford Road Cemetery and is one of a select few commemorated on the wall of remembrance at the cemetery.Something I'm rather proud of.

I also have a picture of him and the 5 medals he was bestowed with for the Boer War and WW1.

He also won what was known as the ' silver war ' medal which was to recognise a soldier being honourably discharged from war service.
That was to distinguish soldiers from conscientious objectors who were targeted for abuse by the general public.

 

[Brauny]

For an ordinary soldier's memoir of WW1 I recommend With A Machine Gun to Cambrai by George Coppard.

I have managed to get hold of copies of the 8th Leicestershire Regiments war diaries of which my great uncle served.
I got them from the National Archives at Kew in London and I was told they are quite unique because most other regiments diaries were destroyed.
Luckily the Leicestershire Regiments survived and they provide an incredible insight to those moments just before and during the early hours of the battle of the Somme.
They are very descriptive and the officer wrote them like a minute by minute account of the tension before going into the battle, the fighting itself, the heavy casualties and the several roll calls they did to keep a check on the strength of the regiment.
Fascinating stuff.

 

[borebage53]

I remember Micky the Hoss, latterly of this parish,telling me of an Earl Shilton family who had members who had fought at Waterloo. I had called in to see Micky when he was living in Earl Shilton. He related to me the story of the Almey family from the village.
Six men from Earl Shilton have been identified as serving in the Battle of Waterloo on June 18, 1815, specifically within The Royal Horse Artillery and Rocket Troop. Key figures included three members of the Almey family (Nathaniel,Samuel and George) in Mercer’s G Troop alongside Jacques Raven and Thomas and George Chapman.

 

[Sammelslongshot]

My Great Uncle was at the Somme in July 1916.
He served in the 8th Leicestershire Regiment.
At that time he was 36 and a veteran of the Boer War in Africa.
He was a Sgt in the 1st WW but was returned home from the Somme with illness.
I found out that he had developed caries of the spine or probably more commonly known as Potts disease which was a form of TB.
He died aged 39 in 1919 and is buried in the WW1 plot at Welford Road Cemetery and is one of a select few commemorated on the wall of remembrance at the cemetery.Something I'm rather proud of.

I also have a picture of him and the 5 medals he was bestowed with for the Boer War and WW1.

He also won what was known as the ' silver war ' medal which was to recognise a soldier being honourably discharged from war service.
That was to distinguish soldiers from conscientious objectors who were targeted for abuse by the general public.

The silver war badge. My grandad had one of those too.

 

[Sammelslongshot]

I have managed to get hold of copies of the 8th Leicestershire Regiments war diaries of which my uncle served.
I got them from the National Archives at Kew in London and I was told they are quite unique because most other regiments diaries were destroyed.
Luckily the Leicestershire Regiments survived and they provide an incredible insight to those moments just before and during the early hours of the battle of the Somme.
They are very descriptive and the officer wrote them like a minute by minute account of the tension before going into the battle, the fighting itself, the heavy casualties and the several roll calls they did to keep a check on the strength of the regiment.
Fascinating stuff.

If you have not seen the the Great War interviews from the 1964 BBC series are well worth seeing. Often think of the members of my family that served. Particularly the 8th Service Battalion of The Queens Royal West Surrey Regiment, 3rd and 4th Royal Fusilers and Royal Field Artillery.

 

[borebage53]

Key details of Earl Shilton’s Waterloo soldiers:
The Almey family: Nathaniel,Samuel and George served as Bombardiers in Captain Alexander Cavalié Mercer’s G Troop Royal Horse Artillery.
G Troop played a critical role in the battle,holding their ground against major cavalry charges and famously not being overrun.
Jacques Raven served in Whinyate’s Rocket Troop. Thomas and George Chapman also served with distinction in G Troop.
The discovery of the men was linked to studying the paylist for G Troop for July 1815. (This would indicate that they all survived).
There is a memorial and trees planted to commemorate the men in Wood Street Community Park. Nearly adjacent to where Micky lived.
The book I am reading at the moment also tells me that Mercer’s Troop of Artillery did indeed stop repeated French cavalry charges by firing grape shot and canister at point blank range. Cumutively piling up so many French bodies and horses in large heaps in front of their position that any further French charges were impossible!

 

[Sammelslongshot]

Key details of Earl Shilton’s Waterloo soldiers:
The Almey family: Nathaniel,Samuel and George served as Bombardiers in Captain Alexander Cavalié Mercer’s G Troop Royal Horse Artillery.
G Troop played a critical role in the battle,holding their ground against major cavalry charges and famously not being overrun.
Jacques Raven served in Whinyate’s Rocket Troop. Thomas and George Chapman also served with distinction in G Troop.
The discovery of the men was linked to studying the paylist for G Troop for July 1815. (This would indicate that they all survived).
There is a memorial and trees planted to commemorate the men in Wood Street Community Park. Nearly adjacent to where Micky lived.
The book I am reading at the moment also tells me that Mercer’s Troop of Artillery did indeed stop repeated French cavalry charges firing by firing grape shot and canister at point blank. Cumutively piling up so many French bodies and horses in large heaps in front of their position that any further French charges were impossible!

Great information. Thanks

 

[borebage53]

Great information. Thanks

Thanks belongs to dear old Micky really!

 

[Pen4]

My Great Uncle was at the Somme in July 1916.
He served in the 8th Leicestershire Regiment.
At that time he was 36 and a veteran of the Boer War in Africa.
He was a Sgt in the 1st WW but was returned home from the Somme with illness.
I found out that he had developed caries of the spine or probably more commonly known as Potts disease which was a form of TB.
He died aged 39 in 1919 and is buried in the WW1 plot at Welford Road Cemetery and is one of a select few commemorated on the wall of remembrance at the cemetery.Something I'm rather proud of.

I also have a picture of him and the 5 medals he was bestowed with for the Boer War and WW1.

He also won what was known as the ' silver war ' medal which was to recognise a soldier being honourably discharged from war service.
That was to distinguish soldiers from conscientious objectors who were targeted for abuse by the general public.

You probably already have this book but if not it's a must have given your Great Uncle's service with the 8th

 

[Sammelslongshot]

Always remember one of the old boys interviewed about going up the line for first time. His company met another coming down the line. "Where you blokes from" said one of the men coming back. "Somerset" came the reply. "You'll soon wish you were back there" A simple but chilling portent of what was to come.

 

[Brauny]

You probably already have this book but if not it's a must have given your Great Uncle's service with the 8th

View attachment 9106

Thanks for that.

Actually I don't have that and will try to acquire it.
I know my Great Uncle lived at 3 Kensington Street off Belgrave Road.
I've been past the property which is just a basic terraced house from that period.
Sometimes I can't get my head around the fact he and his wife lived there and that the current and previous occupants would have no idea that a person who to me is a war hero lived there.

 

[Pen4]

Thanks for that.

Actually I don't have that and will try to acquire it.
I know my Great Uncle lived at 3 Kensington Street off Belgrave Road.
I've been past the property which is just a basic terraced house from that period.
Sometimes I can't get my head around the fact he and his wife lived there and that the current and previous occupants would have no idea that a person who to me is a war hero lived there.

Its on Amazon or try Abe Books for a cheaper second hand copy. It's a great read

Your point on the house is a good one. I research soldiers and its interesting to see that many properties still exist