Brexit and fishing rights.

The sovereignty issue was the great con. We already had and have sovereignty.

But every country has to diminish a little bit of its sovereignty, in order to make trading deals.

The only alternative is an Empire and even then, the powerful nation has to give way in some form to protect trade.
 
So when the UK signs a trade deal with the USA, will it be the uk courts or US courts that take primacy in disputes?

We already know the answer, because the US has stated that the US courts rule the roost.

So swap ECJ for a US court.

This is the reality of trade with a larger body.
 
sixthswan said:
The sovereignty issue was the great con. We already had and have sovereignty.

But every country has to diminish a little bit of its sovereignty, in order to make trading deals.

The only alternative is an Empire and even then, the powerful nation has to give way in some form to protect trade.
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All true sixthswan.

The big con though was the promise, made by the Cameron government, that it would make a difference.

BarrowFox said:
So when the UK signs a trade deal with the USA, will it be the uk courts or US courts that take primacy in disputes?

We already know the answer, because the US has stated that the US courts rule the roost.

So swap ECJ for a US court.

This is the reality of trade with a larger body.
Click to expand...
If we don't like the terms of the deal, if it is not in our interests, don't sign up to it.

That is the point in being a sovereign country. Of course it would help a lot if we had a government with a backbone that would stand up for our best interests, but as the last 5 years have proved, we don't.
 
All good in theory. But we can't just not sign trade deals forever.

At some point, someone has to give in. That someone will be the one in the weaker position. That's us...
 
So you believe we should all pay more for everything, and reduce our freedoms, just so we can use the word "sovereign" without really understanding what it means?

That is a "great reset".
 
AFCDorset said:
Firstly, we are in a transition period. Still paying into the eu, following their rules and subjecting our country to their ECJ.
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i think we will fundamentally have to disagree here. the transition period was FREELY entered into by the sovereign UK government. in my book that is a definition of sovereignity - freedom to do what you want. and what we wanted was to sign up to a transition period.

everything - everything - we are currently doing is at the choice of the UK government. you may not like it, but you had an election last december to voice an opinion on that, and after that we are in the hands of our elected officials.
 
sixthswan said:
All good in theory. But we can't just not sign trade deals forever.

At some point, someone has to give in. That someone will be the one in the weaker position. That's us...
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We are a 'big' economy and market, therefore an attractive trading partner. There is no need for anyone to give in, that is marxist terminology, bollocks in other words.

Trade deals work when they benefit both parties, it really is not rocket surgery!
SardiniaFox said:
So you believe we should all pay more for everything, and reduce our freedoms, just so we can use the word "sovereign" without really understanding what it means?

That is a "great reset".
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This is my straw man, if you do not like him, I have others.
 
What? said:
Hackers, we buy more from them than we sell to them. Why would they want to risk losing one of their best customers?

China can undercut most of the western world with cheap labour but we still keep trading with them
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As a percentage of GDP we would take a far bigger hit.
 
Adumass said:
i think we will fundamentally have to disagree here. the transition period was FREELY entered into by the sovereign UK government. in my book that is a definition of sovereignity - freedom to do what you want. and what we wanted was to sign up to a transition period.

everything - everything - we are currently doing is at the choice of the UK government. you may not like it, but you had an election last december to voice an opinion on that, and after that we are in the hands of our elected officials.
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All quite correct Adumass, nothing to disagree with there at all.

The issue that is at the crux of the matter is that what the government has been doing since the Brexit vote has been totally different to what they promised to do during the Brexit campaign and recent general elections.

It may well be the choice of the Britsh government, but it is not the choice of the British people and most certainly not what they voted for.
 
AFCDorset said:
All quite correct Adumass, nothing to disagree with there at all.

The issue that is at the crux of the matter is that what the government has been doing since the Brexit vote has been totally different to what they promised to do during the Brexit campaign and recent general elections.

It may well be the choice of the Britsh government, but it is not the choice of the British people and most certainly not what they voted for.
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All of them?
 
If you replace 'its's the will of the people' with ' its the will of some of the people that were allowed to give an opinion' it doesn't work as well as a sound bite, also who needs honesty in politics!
 
AFCDorset said:
totally different to what they promised to do during the Brexit campaign and recent general elections.
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i can sympathise with that. we are often promised one thing, and given another.

though they did promise - in their 2019 manifesto - to leave the EU with a trade deal, which might be at odds with with what you thought you'd be getting.
 
Adumass said:
i can sympathise with that. we are often promised one thing, and given another.

though they did promise - in their 2019 manifesto - to leave the EU with a trade deal, which might be at odds with with what you thought you'd be getting.
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My reading of that was that a trade deal would be done if possible, but that we would leave whatever happens.

Interpretation I guess.

BarrowFox said:
No,

26.5% of them.

its the will of a little over a quarter of the people
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That is how the setup works, you know that.

Had the results been reversed I doubt you would have complained.
 
I consider myself to be fairly intelligent and quite 'worldly', but I do, generally take people at their word.

When a prime minister, still quite well regarded at that point, tells you clearly and unequivocally that he will 'implement the results of the referendum' and that leave means 'leaving all the institutions of the EU', I did believe him.

Foolish as it turns out, but I actually thought that if we voted leave, we would leave.

When Johnson told me that he 'would get Brexit done', I was far more skeptical, but I did rather hope that a 'full on' positive and enthusiastic government would actually go some way to sorting this mess out.

I know that Johnson does not 'do detail', but plenty in his cabinet do, and the I felt that the idea of Johnson as an enthusiastic and energetic figurehead driving Brexit forward might actually be successful.

Doh!
 
AFCDorset said:
I consider myself to be fairly intelligent and quite 'worldly', but I do, generally take people at their word.

When a prime minister, still quite well regarded at that point, tells you clearly and unequivocally that he will 'implement the results of the referendum' and that leave means 'leaving all the institutions of the EU', I did believe him.

Foolish as it turns out, but I actually thought that if we voted leave, we would leave.

When Johnson told me that he 'would get Brexit done', I was far more skeptical, but I did rather hope that a 'full on' positive and enthusiastic government would actually go some way to sorting this mess out.

I know that Johnson does not 'do detail', but plenty in his cabinet do, and the I felt that the idea of Johnson as an enthusiastic and energetic figurehead driving Brexit forward might actually be successful.

Doh!
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Detail? Name one.
 
AFCDorset said:
And the river in which all the remainers live, de Nile.


Explaining how leaving will change things in the uk, the effects on travel or business, those kinds of details.
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Which they really haven't explained very well.
 
AFCDorset said:
When a prime minister, still quite well regarded at that point,
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By whom? He was sacked as a columnist for lying, had various affairs and doesn't admit how many children he's fathered, hid in a fridge in the election runup to avoid questioning, arranged to have someone beaten up for a chum. I could go on.
 
What? said:
All of what?

If you mean I don't make shit up, you're quite right
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Tell me, how exactly is transport across the channel going to work under no deal.
Can I still drive my car on my insurance?
What replaces my pet passport?
 
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