Brexit and fishing rights.

AFCDorset said:
Absolute nonsense. My views are pretty much the opposite of what you say, are my postings really that unclear?

The country leaves the eu which puts everything back on us as an independent country. We choose, we decide, we do deals, we refuse to do deals, we own the consequences of our actions.

The fact that our useless government has made no attempts to prepare to leave is criminal, all of this stuff should have been put in place over the last 4-5 years.

What the hell is that nonsense about the season ticket? Why would any sane person think like that?
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I'll give you, you're an idealist.

Sadly in this world you have to have a degree of pragmatism and diplomacy.
 
AFCDorset said:
Absolute nonsense. My views are pretty much the opposite of what you say, are my postings really that unclear?

The country leaves the eu which puts everything back on us as an independent country. We choose, we decide, we do deals, we refuse to do deals, we own the consequences of our actions.

The fact that our useless government has made no attempts to prepare to leave is criminal, all of this stuff should have been put in place over the last 4-5 years.

What the hell is that nonsense about the season ticket? Why would any sane person think like that?
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Seems to be the kind of scenario that Johnson the ERG and many leavers think should happen, full rights to anything we want but no payment to the EU.
 
it's all about leverage AFC.

they've got something we want (access to multiple databases) and there is a cost to that. will we pay the cost (financial or otherwise)?

of course you can argue that we've got the UK side of the database, and they will (rightly) want access to that. but its not an even trade (80m vs 450m) so there is still a cost to that if we want it.

i agree we should keep the old data, but how accurate will that be in just a years time?
 
SardiniaFox said:
I'll give you, you're an idealist.

Sadly in this world you have to have a degree of pragmatism and diplomacy.
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No I am very much a pragmatist.

In important matters I state my views, my requirements etc and do so politely.

I make decision and, unlike many people, I say what I mean, clearly I hope. If there are consequences to any decisions that I make, then I 'own' them, my responsibility, my problem.

When I worked for a living I mostly worked for myself. If I was offered a job that I didn't fancy then I would simply say no. No work, no pay, my problem. I had mates who would take on work that I refused, they got into problems and sometimes I would help them out. Happy to do so, but in this case the results, good or bad, were not down to me.
 
Adumass said:
it's all about leverage AFC.

they've got something we want (access to multiple databases) and there is a cost to that. will we pay the cost (financial or otherwise)?

of course you can argue that we've got the UK side of the database, and they will (rightly) want access to that. but its not an even trade (80m vs 450m) so there is still a cost to that if we want it.

i agree we should keep the old data, but how accurate will that be in just a years time?
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Agree up to a point.

Any co-operative arrangement will involve give and take. I am not a marxist, so I believe that a deal can be struck that benefits all parties.

I would hope that something as important and fundamental as security and dealing with serious crime would elicit an attitude of mutual co-operation but if the other side want to play silly buggers, walk away.

We have intelligence services and other assets, use them.
 
What? said:
Where do you "see" this?

How are negotiators inept when we don't know the results of the negotiations yet?
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I would call a negotiator inept if he/she agreed anything with the EU at any time before the very very last opportunity to do so. Or preferably, a bit later than that. That's how the EU always works, and I wasn't the only one to point that out several years ago.
 
Filbo65 said:
I would call a negotiator inept if he/she agreed anything with the EU at any time before the very very last opportunity to do so. Or preferably, a bit later than that. That's how the EU always works, and I wasn't the only one to point that out several years ago.
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That is why we walk away with no deal.

The eu are not honourable partners, they lie and cheat and are, effectively, unaccountable.

Which was why, the sensible thing to do was to invoke article 50 and spend the 2 years preparing for our exit on WTO rules.

If the eu wanted to do trade deals, fine if not, get on with the rest of the world.
 
Filbo65 said:
I would call a negotiator inept if he/she agreed anything with the EU at any time before the very very last opportunity to do so. Or preferably, a bit later than that. That's how the EU always works, and I wasn't the only one to point that out several years ago.
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I’d call a team of negotiators inept if key members had admitted or clearly demonstrated they had made as little preparation as possible & in an effort to deflect their lack of diligence, blamed the other side for not agreeing to their demands.

Has the hallmarks of Johnson all over it.
 
hackneyfox said:
eu friends and partners??????
We chose to walk out on them, those partnerships no longer exist.
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I think the security issue is bollocks, a red herring. Why the fuck wouldnt one country not want to share info if it safeguards their citizens. Our security service is well respected. Any country that chooses to treat potentially life saving intelligence as a currency, are utter caaants, including us. Do you think the vile British will be the ones to impose it?
 
astleyfox said:
I think the security issue is bollocks, a red herring. Why the fuck wouldnt one country not want to share info if it safeguards their citizens. Our security service is well respected. Any country that chooses to treat potentially life saving intelligence as a currency, are utter caaants, including us. Do you think the vile British will be the ones to impose it?
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Oh. okay . The security chief was wrong then . You clearly know better . Thanks
 
I love the stuff about the EU being unaccountable when the UK clearly do not want a deal and are lying about the amount of damage such a standpoint will do.

Australian deal. Yeah right.
 
SardiniaFox said:
I love the stuff about the EU being unaccountable when the UK clearly do not want a deal and are lying about the amount of damage such a standpoint will do.

Australian deal. Yeah right.
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We have to get things right SF - it's also been referred to as an "Australian-style deal". Which sounds like tosh.
 
What? said:
"UK clearly do not want a deal"

You really do make this stuff up don't you
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Well, the UK is still arguing about the same issues with 13 days to go. It isn't like they didn't know about the deadline the UK imposed.

And then there is the small matter of time to implement such a deal.
 
Club_B00k_Crutchless said:
As opposed to a Govt with such integrity they admit they will "break international law in a very specific and limited way" if necessary. That would be a good look for negotiating future deals.
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I wasn't comparing Club Book, I have made my views on recent British governments quite clear, in this thread and others.

Signing up to agreements that are, in effect traitorous, are things that, as a country we should be able to renege on. How parliament allowed the WA to pass into law was a disgrace, I am reluctant to prosecute individuals in a situation like this but the behaviour of May and some of her colleagues was little short of sedition.

Regarding 'the deal', I think it was agreed some time ago and will be a sell out by the Johnson government, leaving the uk in a subordinate position as an 'associate' member of the EU.

Naturally it will be 'sold' to us as a great success, a last minute agreement that preserves British jobs and trade and gives the uk back it's sovereignty.

It will of course be no such thing, the 'terms and conditions' that we will not be told about will make sure of that.
 
SardiniaFox said:
Well, the UK is still arguing about the same issues with 13 days to go. It isn't like they didn't know about the deadline the UK imposed.

And then there is the small matter of time to implement such a deal.
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It is all part of the script SF.

We will have a deal 'in principle' the implementation of which will be kicked still further down to road. Nothing will change, we continue to pay and do as we are told.

The economic fallout from the Covid disaster will take care of the rest.
 
AFCDorset said:
I wasn't comparing Club Book, I have made my views on recent British governments quite clear, in this thread and others.
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I think we're mainly in agreement about the duplicitousness of Johnson and his cronies, just the hoped for outcomes we disagree on. Whatever happens, I think we're in for a bumpy ride, and a lot of people are going to be much worse off.
 
Club_B00k_Crutchless said:
I think we're mainly in agreement about the duplicitousness of Johnson and his cronies, just the hoped for outcomes we disagree on. Whatever happens, I think we're in for a bumpy ride, and a lot of people are going to be much worse off.
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Agreed Club Book.

Though I think the destruction wrought by the government's ludicrous response to Covid will be the real cause of the problems.
In an economic sense I think Brexit might now be an irrelevance.

(Personally, in a different world, I still think that a positive and robust response to the referendum would have been far better than the last 4-5 years of whinging bollocks, but that's me. Irrelevant now anyway.)
 
AFCDorset said:
Agreed Club Book.

Though I think the destruction wrought by the government's ludicrous response to Covid will be the real cause of the problems.
In an economic sense I think Brexit might now be an irrelevance.

(Personally, in a different world, I still think that a positive and robust response to the referendum would have been far better than the last 4-5 years of whinging bollocks, but that's me. Irrelevant now anyway.)
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The economic effect on working people of Covid is apparently a drop in the ocean compared to the damage of no deal Brexit.
 
AFCDorset said:
Really?

You will not be surprised to know that I do not believe that for one instance.
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We'll have to agree to disagree.

Personally speaking, I have already experienced what no deal feels like just to stay living here.
 
AFCDorset said:
Do explain, seriously.

In return I promise to tell you how my health has been wrecked by a covid obsessed NHS.
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The hoops and associated costs you now have to jump through to retain residency.

Export duties on anything sent / received to/from the UK.

And it will get worse.
 
You choose to live in a foreign country.

Obey their rules and get on with it. I used to live in Andalusia, more forms than you could shake a stick at. My choice, my responsibility.

Sorry SF, I used to live in Europe pre-Maastricht, no more tedious than my experiences in Spain a few years back.
 
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